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[Day_Tripper]

I'm anti-fluoride in drinking water or toothpaste or anywhere, unless it occurs naturally.  But, I need help in researching facts, both pro and con about fluoridated drinking water.  My city fluoridates my drinking water and I need actual data to try to present to the city counsel.  I honestly don't know how to go about this.  I guess I should show up at some meetings first to try to get a feel for them.  I figure I could probably reserve a room at the library and invite people to come, through craigslist and the local paper, and talk about fluoride.  But, before I can do any of that, I have to know the studies both pro and con.  Just like preparing for a debate.  Then again, I'm not a dentist and have no credentials to tell people...so, I have to...I don't know.

I read what our city had to say about fluoridation and it comes directly from the American Dental ASSociation.

http://www.ada.org/sections/newsAndEvents/pdfs/fluoridation_facts.pdf

Now, in reading this PDF I started getting a little pissed.  I know to stop researching when I start seeing red, and I started to see red while reading this.  It's so cute how about 1/2 of the way down the American Dental ASSociation gives us stupid idiots, "key elements in reviewing research".     Oh yeah?  I've read the goddamned studies that the government did on microwaves!  I can tell you exactly where they botched the scientific method.  I've read the studies about aspartame, thanks Rummy for killing people, and I know how it became "legal".  Now, these elitist assholes are going to explain to ME how to evaluated research???  FUCKERS!

//rant off 
//well, maybe

Now, another thing that is easily noticed is the reference section at the bottom.  Now I know where Ann Coulter learned this technique.  They have 358 footnotes!  My god, the document is less than 70 pages and part of that is trying to tell us how to "evaluate research"! 

So, I started trying to research the first reference.  Oh, excuse me, the first two footnotes reference the same document.

"Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.  Ten great public health achievements-United States, 1990-1999.  MMWR 1999;48(12):241-3"

Found that one.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056796.htm

Hey, looky there, fluoride ranks right up there with vaccines and "safer and healthier foods".  UGH!  See why this ticks me off?  Vaccines?  Really?  With mercury?  Safer foods?  Really?  With more food recalls?  Healthier?  Really?  With GMO foods?  Come on!  How stupid do these assholes think we are???

OK, OK...

So, I look down on the bottom again, to find their footnotes.  So it looks like I need a trip to the library to try to find this book:

Burt BA, Eklund SA. Dentistry, dental practice, and the community. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: WB Saunders Company, 1999:204-20.

I don't care to buy it.

Anyway, that is about as far as I could get before getting really pissed and walked away from the computer.  I poured myself a drink, popped in some stupid movie and took a few notes.  Here are some questions I have.

1.  Who in the hell is Herschel Horowitz?  Is that an Ashkenazi last name there?
2.  If I were to buy sodium fluoride, would I need a prescription?
3.  What is the difference between naturally occurring fluoride and sodium fluoride?
4.  Where in the Constitution is the city ALLOWED to medicate us?  If indeed fluoride is considered a "medication".
5.  How much does it cost the city to fluoridate?
6.  Which corporation does the city buy the fluoride from?

Oh, the American Dental ASSociation also has a typo in their little PDF.  They spelled public wrong...or maybe fluoride is only to be used in the pubic region and they can't tell the difference between where water goes in and where it goes out.

Anyway, just rehashing this info and writing this has angered me again.  Time to walk away again, for the moment.

Mael?  If you're out there, I'm sure you could help with links.  Maybe links to actual studies that show the links between fluoride and brain damage and bone cancer?

Lashy, you're a good researcher, maybe you could help me out here too?

I'm looking for the actual studies.  Who funded the studies, how many participants, etc.

Help me out guys, maybe, just maybe lil' ol' me could actually make a difference?

[Day_Tripper]

Ah, found this tidbit from Dr. Mercola's site:

Fluoride Can Actually CAUSE Cavities -- Studies have shown that consuming too much fluoride might actually cause tooth decay, rather than prevent it.

One such study, published in the September 2001 issue of International Journal of Pediatric Dentistry, found that South African children who drank water containing high levels of natural fluoride, had more tooth decay than children in other parts of South Africa who drank much lower concentrations.

By comparison, fluoride-saturated American teenagers had twice the rate of cavities as the South African children drinking low levels of natural fluoride!

According to the dental textbook, Dentistry, Dental Practice and the Community, by Brian Burt, DBS and Steven Eklund, DDS, fluoride concentrations form a J-shaped curve, where cavities are reduced up to a point, and then begins to rise again as you’re exposed to higher and higher levels of fluoride.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/2/5/is-your-dentist-drilling-for-dollars.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/09/26/dentists-cause-cavities.aspx

Sounds like one of the steps I need to do is to get a few different samples of my city water and take it in to be independently verified to find out how much fluoride is actually in the water.  There is a place close by that does that sort of thing.  My boyfriend used them to test his well water.  He has great water.  Damn, I need to really start bringing some glass bottles up there and filling them so I can have some clean drinking water.

Hum, another thought occurred to me, what if I were to talk to some local Naturalpaths?  Maybe they too would be against fluoride?  But again, I need to get my data first.

Maybe I should get a video thingy and visually document where I get the water from?  I dunno.

[lashmar]

Lashy, you're a good researcher, maybe you could help me out here too?

You know I will. I'll look into all of that below but what is the bit underlined? an "ashkenazi"

1.  Who in the hell is Herschel Horowitz?  Is that an Ashkenazi last name there?
2.  If I were to buy sodium fluoride, would I need a prescription?
3.  What is the difference between naturally occurring fluoride and sodium fluoride?
4.  Where in the Constitution is the city ALLOWED to medicate us?  If indeed fluoride is considered a "medication".
5.  How much does it cost the city to fluoridate?
6.  Which corporation does the city buy the fluoride from?

[4Etznab]

Hey D.T.
 The town in which I live fought the water fluoridation program from day one, they never instituted it here. It's a town of about 45000 people so kind of small in size as cities go, but it has a lot of heart. Someone must have done some research in the beginning to ward off the governments tampering with the water supply.

I know the guy that runs the local water department Frank Di Orio, I've known him for many years. In the morning I will give him a call and see what information he has on the matter. When I get back tomorrow I will forward what ever I get.

I can't remember where I saw it but some video I watched went into great detail on Fluoridation, it might have been one of the Peter Joseph films. I will attempt to find that as well.

Good for you stepping up! I wish you the very best with your endeavor.

[lashmar]

I can't find any real info on Herschel Horowitz apart from what you get on the first page of google. Maybe I've missed something because I haven't even been able to find out things like what school he went to (which is very useful). I'm good at finding things out about people but this fucker is hard, apart from the stuff you get on the first page of google I really haven't got too much on him...I must have missed something though so I'm going to re-read everything tonight and tomorrow. 

[Scorpiusmaximus]

Try here maybe?  My computer is being a pain and i can't access the site myself.  http://www.thedentistdatabase.com/#

[Day_Tripper]

Lashy, Ashkanazis are of Turkish ancestry.  Many of them claim to be Semitic ancestry, but most of them aren't.  Those who do have some Semite in their blood are halfbreeds.  They're the ones who are currently occupying Palestine.  They come from the Khazars, hence the name Ashkanazi.  Notice the last 4 letters of their name.   Anyway, the Khazars converted to Judaism when the crusades were happening.  The rulers of the time wanted a state religion but wanted to stay out of the christian/muslim thing, so they picked judaism.  Most Ashkanazis today don't practice Judaism and treat those who do as second or third class citizens.  They're also the first to call criticism of Israel "anti-Semite" even though Palestinians are Semites.

I'm pretty sure Horowitz is an Ashkanazi last name.  I find it to be "coincidental".

I did find out the guy went to the U. of Michigan and was born in Detroit in '32.  Hum...what year did WWII officially start?

http://www.sph.umd.edu/literacy/biography.cfm

I also found this testemony urging the gov to reevaluate fluoride data:

http://www.nteu280.org/Issues/Fluoride/629FINAL.htm

I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I'll be able to find it again now that I've posted it here.

[Day_Tripper]

Hey 4Etznab, did you get a chance to get ahold of that water guy?  I'd be interested in what he has to say.  BTW, you're lucky living where you do.  There are counties here that don't add fluoride and I believe the city of Spokane doesn't add fluoride either.  My boyfriend has a great well.  He has his water tested every once in a while and it is great water.  What I need to do is start bringing up a bunch of glass bottles and filling them at his place.  But, sodium fluoride is absorbed by skin too.  So, should I only shower when I'm at his place too?  What about when I rinse vegetables off and it pours onto my hands?

Anyway, I hope y'all don't mind if I kind of use this thread as a notepad to jot down thoughts and info.

I found this "debate" and need to come back here to read it in full.

http://www.scienceclarified.com/dispute/Vol-2/Does-the-addition-of-fluoride-to-drinking-water-cause-significant-harm-to-humans.html

What I've learned so far from this link is that naturally occurring fluoride is calcium fluoride, not sodium fluoride.  I need to research the differences between the two.

I've found a link to a study about fertility in male rats here:

http://www.fluoride-journal.com/00-33-3/333-128.pdf

I'll come back to read that.

Another interesting link here that talks about the toxicity of fluoride and how it's used as a pesticide and such.

http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/summary.tcl?edf_substance_id=7681-49-4#hazards

Another link:

http://www.epa.gov/opppmsd1/PPISdata/

Here is the material safety data sheet on sodium fluoride:

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Sodium_fluoride-9927595

Same thing, different version:

http://www.fluoridealert.org/pesticides/sodium.fluoride.msds.1999.htm

To sum up what I've gathered so far...

Too much fluoride causes many diseases, cancers, tooth decay, bone decay, downs syndrome, etc.  Sodium fluoride is different than naturally occurring calcium fluoride.  Hitler used sodium fluoride on his prisoners.  Sodium fluoride is also used as a pesticide/fungicide.  It is quite possible that eating conventionally grown food with fluoride, washing that off with fluoridated water, brushing teeth with fluoridated toothpaste, etc.  How hard would it to be to get too much fluoride.  Sodium fluoride is created by manufacturing waste.

More questions and things I need info for...

-Is there a relationship between fluoridating water and bone cancers?  Other diseases?  Infertility?
-Again, which corporation(s) supply the sodium fluoride?
-Where do they get it from?  (One name I saw was Alcoa)
-With the combinations of fluoride in water, as a pesticide, in milk, in toothpaste, etc.  are we actually getting too much fluoride?
-I know where to go to get my water tested, is it possible to get some various conventionally raised fruit/veggies tested for sodium fluoride?

Thoughts about creating a speech...

-Start with the history and the names.
-Research the men, and it was mostly men, who did this research.
-Contrast that research with men like Weston A Price and his discoveries.
-Talk about the American Dental ASSociation and how they used to use mercury in fillings and that is now a well known deadly toxin.  They make a lot of "mistakes".
-Oh, and the fact that one of their references compares sodium fluoride with vaccines which do use mercury as a preservative.
-What order should the speech go in?
-Maybe get a set of those little chemistry tinker-toy thingies and show the different chemical makeup between sodium fluoride and calcium fluoride.  It could be like a show-and-tell with activities.  Then maybe give a little talk about the difference in the chemical structure between the two...ooh...that could be fun.  Wait...I have a buddy who got a degree in chemistry...Ohhh I need to talk to him.  He likes to teach too.   

[Day_Tripper]

Hummm...another idea...I wonder about people who shop at my local co-op?  One brainstorm idea could be to advertise outside PCC, which is a food shop that specializes in local/organically grown produce.  Maybe outside whole foods which claims to be the same, but buys "organic" from China.    Or...also....the local farmers markets!!!! 

OK...i think i can...i think i can...

First step, show up at a city council meeting or two.
Meanwhile, research this.
Learn how to get subjects talked about through Robert's Rule's of Order. (I HATE THAT BOOK!!!!)
Meanwhile, research this.
Download everything to my computer.
Talk to friend about the chemical differences.
Buy the tinker-toy like thingies, I think I know a store to buy them at, if they're not out of business.
Talk to librarians about how to get a room there.
Get an organized group to get into city council.
I know a couple of local online communities that may help....
Meanwhile research this...
Print, print, print...

[Day_Tripper]

What about talking to local naturalpaths?  I need to do that too.